MyDD :: its way too easy to blame Bush & Cheney & McCain

its way too easy to blame Bush & Cheney & McCain

by blackflag, Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 06:12:27 AM EST

The idea that we, as a nation, engaged in torture, and that this could make our leaders potential war criminals for their decisions to abrogate the Geneva Conventions, set up after the depracations of the Nazis, this presents us with some confounding choices to make.

We can, and will, and have, bashed the Bush Admininstration for it's excesses. The reporting on the run up to and during the past 7 years has been pretty clear.

So, now we can truly, righteously go on decrying the actions of these Others...

Or, we could contemplate that we, as a nation, may be guilty of torture, and just letting it go, and ignore the clear fact that while the election of 2000 was dubious, we, as a nation, did voluntarily, and of our free will, put Bush back in the saddle, with the outlines of his policies pretty damn clear by that point.

So, do we just now pivot, forget about the past & embrace change in such a self serving way?

Bush could not have done what he did without us, yes, us. Including us who did not agree, but sat back and did not get into the streets, as I did not, I too am a culprit.

As a nation we need to examine ourselves, not just our leaders, it would letting us off way too easy, just vote for change, its all good...well, no, it is not all good at all.

I am not advocating a position or person, but in our haste to strike poses of enduring grand character traits, we sometime forget our government is, indeed, a reflection of us.

Just bashing the folks who ran the war and okayed the torture, it is necessary, but can let some folks off the hook way too easy

Tags: Iraqi war, torture, war criminals, 2004 election, change (all tags)

Permalink :: 6 Comments :: Post a Comment

Well (2.00 / 1)

In some ways, I agree that we are all responsible for not pushing hard enough to get Kerry elected. But you can not deny that our government has lied to us and deceived us and manipulated us at every turn on a level never seen before in history (yes, much more than Watergate).

It is hard to hold our government accountable when they "accidentally" delete thousands of crucial pre-Iraq emails, refuse to turn over information to Congress, lie about smearing an anti-war CIA Agent, and mislead both the FBI and the CIA.

I'll be damned if Bush does not go down as the worst two-term president in history.

by ProgressiveDL on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 07:14:19 AM EST

Collective responsibility... (none / 0)

...is not an exact science.

One model is the Nuremberg model. This model seems to place the blame on the military components of society. Following orders is no excuse but they didn't try the rank and file German. Of course the Nazis did come to power by democratic means so there is some responsibility to those who voted for them but the tribunals went after the actual instruments of policy and not the ultimate policymakers (those who voted National Socialist in democratic elections). However, the Nuremberg trials were an important part of post-WWII culture as they were the mechanism for the Germans to come to grips with what they did. This caused several cultural changes in Germany that are even visible today.

The other model was the South African Truth and Reconciliation commission. The approach here is that Apartheid was so rampant that the commission wanted a full account of it. The commission would trade amnesty for a full account of an individual's role in it. This was a tool for parts of society to take responsibility for what they did.

However, on these two historical models, either a pass is given to the people at large (and taking responsibility comes later) or the society gives a no judgment way of letting people come to grips.

I think based on the models of what works, assigning blame is not very productive because that entrenches people in their positions. Plus, is it useful to assign blame if there is no change in society?

Visiting the hopium dens proudly since 2007.

by AZphilosopher on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 07:16:18 AM EST

I hear you (none / 0)

but I at least partially disagree. Our executive has made a mockery of the constitution that they were elected to uphold, spied on its own citizens and generally flaunted the law. If we don not attempt to hold them accountable for war crimes, flaunting of the constitution and generally making a mockery of our country, there is nothing to stop the next one from taking it a step further.

Holding people accountable isn't meant to expiate our sins, it is also meant as a warning to the future.

accepting McLettuce is like being 9 years old and forced to eat your own cooking

by Sychotic1 on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 09:01:26 AM EST

By "the people" in my above post... (none / 0)

...I mean the voters/society at large. As far as I know, no serious person discussing this stuff is talking about assigning responsibility in the context of bringing humanity's judgment down on the individual voter/envelope licker. It is just members of the government that people are talking about trying the instruments of policy. As far as trials, they need to be as circumscribed as possible relating to very specific things if you choose to go that way. There would be a limit to how far down it goes.

Otherwise you go with the South African model and anyone who wants to come forward can.

But generally I think going beyond that limited range or the open invite and ascribing blame to a whole 40+ million people is not productive and is a recipe for backlash and not change.

Visiting the hopium dens proudly since 2007.

by AZphilosopher on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 09:22:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: basic: (none / 0)

The fish rots from the head.

by xdem on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 09:49:46 AM EST

Geez, what a surprise... (none / 0)

...blackflag doesn't want us to blame McCain.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

by Rumproast on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:35:35 PM EST

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